the recources

timvg
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:41 pm

Re: the recources

Post by timvg »

Ok, I'll give this one more go at explaining what I meant. The functionality that you had as little as 3 days ago, which you describe in Video 1 of "Getting Setup" was fantastic. The ability to open a Colab notebook allows a user to do the following:
  • Run through the code initially - which then populates the active namespace with the variables
  • Experiment with the code in the cells - ie implementing -->CHANGES<-- to see what happens
  • For example - they can immediately run stuff like the following to immediately get more understanding

    Code: Select all

    pipeline?
  • They can also start playing around with different inputs and method call options
None of this functionality is present in static webpages. Surely you realise this? Bear in mind that I am just listing out how I find notebooks to be useful teaching materials, and I am not alone as this paradigm is used extremely often - including on the HuggingFace site. If you think that wanting to follow this method to solidify my understanding makes me an inferior programmer, or give you cause for "worry" - then fine, I don't actually care.

OF COURSE (and I'm repeating myself here) I realise that just running through cells of a notebook is not sufficient, but it is up to the students to make decisions for themselves as to how they use it further. At present (and please correct me if I am wrong here), it seems that you say that the code is now fully available, so the user can copy it over to their own notebook or IDE and explore it further there. But wouldn't this lead to EXACTLY THE SAME PROCESS as I describe above, albeit with a far less convenient user experience? What pedagogical benefit is there to this?
timvg
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:41 pm

Re: the recources

Post by timvg »

Ok, I'll give this one more go at explaining what I meant. The functionality that you had as little as 3 days ago, which you describe in Video 1 of "Getting Setup" was fantastic. The ability to open a Colab notebook allows a user to do the following:
  • Run through the code initially - which then populates the active namespace with the variables
  • Experiment with the code in the cells - ie implementing -->CHANGES<-- to see what happens
  • For example - they can immediately run stuff like '?pipeline' to immediately get more understanding
  • They can also start playing around with different inputs and method call options
None of this functionality is present in static webpages. Bear in mind that I am just listing out how I find notebooks to be useful teaching materials, and I am not alone as this paradigm is used extremely often - including on the HuggingFace site. If you think that wanting to follow this method to solidify my understanding makes me an inferior programmer, or gives you cause for "worry" - then fine, I don't actually care.

OF COURSE I realise that just running through cells of a notebook is not sufficient, but it is up to the students to make decisions for themselves as to how they use it further. At present, it seems that you say that the code is now fully available, so the user can copy it over to their own notebook or IDE and explore it further there. But wouldn't this lead to EXACTLY THE SAME PROCESS as I describe above, albeit with a far less convenient user experience? What pedagogical benefit is there to this?

This is getting ridiculous now. To paraphrase my first post: "your course had some great functionality, which isn't behaving the same anymore. It was really useful, any chance that it can be restored?". I cannot see anything there that suggests that I am not open to discussion. You then replied with statements like "are you even familiar with how to write Python code" and "I am really worried for you", together with animated emojis. Can you really not see how this is condescending and inappropriate? Emojis?? This is a professional forum for you to address the queries of your customers, not a WhatsApp group for banter with your mates. I've noticed that you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to treat people as intellectually beneath you if you detect any hint of criticism of your material. It really seems like "if you don't like it - you're clearly not skilled enough to appreciate it".

I'll make one more attempt at an olive branch - I think that the material in your videos is fantastic, which is why I enrolled on this course. But the attitude that you display in any response to some queries makes me not want to even consider asking you for help. This is such a shame, and you have no reason to have this behaviour. If your students have queries, take time to understand what they might be going through... even if you think they are asking daft questions. Also, take some constructive criticism as a chance to consider making changes that customers might want. If you just try to gaslight me again, or make insinuations that I have inferior abilities and don't know what I am doing after this, then it will be clear who isn't interested in dialogue here.
lazyprogrammer
Site Admin
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:46 am

Re: the recources

Post by lazyprogrammer »

timvg wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:12 pm But wouldn't this lead to EXACTLY THE SAME PROCESS as I describe above, albeit with a far less convenient user experience? What pedagogical benefit is there to this?
That's where we disagree, and you haven't convinced me that this is a real pain point for you, although I am ready and willing to listen to any and all convincing arguments.

Your previous post screams "I am entitled to the notebooks because I paid for them", rather than "I have a functional need for this".

"Far less convenient" is a clear exaggeration, and doing things like that isn't helping your case.

Remember that I've tested this process myself, and copying the notebook code from the HTML into a new notebook and running it takes less than 5 seconds per cell, and certainly no more than a few minutes per notebook (let's be generous and say 5 minutes).

The time it takes to copy the code is even less than the time it takes for the code to actually run...

Now consider the other end of this.

Would you just be copying the code blindly without looking at it or understanding it? No. Any student in this course (if they came to the course to actually learn the content, which I assume is always the case) would be reading and understanding the code.

My guesstimate based on my own experience trying to understand the code for the first time, is that it should take a few hours (min 1h) to a few days (say max 1 week).

The actual "copying of code cells" from one place to another is a speck of dust in comparison to the actual time spent just looking at / understanding the code and watching the code lectures.

In fact, copying the code cells could be done concurrently with watching the lectures (hence, taking no extra time).
timvg wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:12 pm What pedagogical benefit is there to this?
Easy. Copying each cell one by one forces you to think about the code you're pasting, that's a good thing. Convince me otherwise.

Consider the alternative: Not thinking about the code cells one by one.

Which is better? Thinking about each code cell or not thinking about each code cell?

I think we got it down to the fundamentals.
timvg wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:12 pm Experiment with the code in the cells - ie implementing CHANGES to see what happens
And how do you plan to do this if spending less than a few minutes copying/looking at the code is far too inconvenient for you?

Wouldn't the time it takes (hours - days) before you could "implement changes" in any reasonable manner, be way longer than the time it takes to copy the notebook?

Using an estimated average:

Time to understand code before making changes even makes any sense: hours or more
Time to just copy code: minutes or less

To even get to the point where you can make any changes, you would need to spend far more time than just a few minutes.

Surely if a few minutes is far too inconvenient, a few hours or days would be an eternity!

Like I said, I'm open to convincing. But this doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I'm trying my best to listen to your feedback, but it doesn't seem to be coming from a genuine and honest place (due to exaggerations, misrepresentations, previous statements which appear to be based on entitlement rather than functionality, etc.)

Here's my challenge to you:

1) Find any conceptual + code lecture in the course that interests you and you're currently watching (i.e. don't pick an advanced lecture if you're in the fine-tuning section)
2) Go through the process of copying the code cells + running them in your own notebook
3) During the process, record the time it takes + the thoughts you had as you copied each cell and reproduced the output one cell at a time
3a) Also make note of which proportion of time was actual copying vs. thinking and trying to understand the code

For #3 I will have to trust in your honesty.
timvg wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:12 pm You then replied with statements like "are you even familiar with how to write Python code" and "I am really worried for you", together with animated emojis. Can you really not see how this is condescending and inappropriate? Emojis?? This is a professional forum for you to address the queries of your customers, not a WhatsApp group for banter with your mates.
Ehh, nobody's perfect. I'm working on it.

Maybe that's the problem here. You're expecting me to be like a robot when in fact you are communicating with another human being...

Again - I am open to convincing. But as you can see, I am very adept at breaking down things which don't line up, and I don't do things just because people ask - it has to actually make sense. If you feel strongly about it, then I want you to have a strong argument to prove your case! Make it make sense to me.

One way to do that would be to start with the experiment I suggested above.

But when I see obvious logical loopholes and the use of attempted psychological manipulations and passive aggressiveness in place of facts and objective evidence, I come down hard.

You know, people also complain that I don't have just one single course on ML and add more and more to it over time (so that they only have to pay $10 and and they can benefit from it infinitely forever and I will be indebted to them for the rest of my life...). Obviously, I cannot just do what everyone demands. I have to judge for myself whether or not it makes sense. Hopefully this example is an obvious one that demonstrates why this is necessary.
lazyprogrammer
Site Admin
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:46 am

Re: the recources

Post by lazyprogrammer »

Not willing to followup?
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